Отправлено: 28.08.19 16:18. Заголовок: альтернативный Тирпиц

Попаданец в Тирпица. Версии по времени 1880-1890-1900.
Новая стратегия, геополитика и проекты кораблей. (и его помощник Штирлиц) :-)

https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/16899.html#comments -идея навеяна текстом ув. Реалсвата

 Отправлено: 03.03.22 16:44. Заголовок: Эскадренный разведыв..

Эскадренный разведывательный лёгкий крейсер ФОМ

laid down 1909, Displacement: 3 458 t light; 3 597 t standard; 3 867 t normal; 4 083 t full load

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Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (392,96 ft / 380,58 ft) x 45,93 ft x (13,12 / 13,70 ft) (119,77 m / 116,00 m) x 14,00 m x (4,00 / 4,18 m) Armament: 6 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 103,86lbs / 47,11kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft 1 raised mount aft - superfiring 6 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft Weight of broadside 749 lbs / 340 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 0,905 t each, 1,809 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 1,57" / 40 mm 196,85 ft / 60,00 m 7,55 ft / 2,30 m Ends: 0,71" / 18 mm 131,23 ft / 40,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m 52,49 ft / 16,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 80% of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 2,36" / 60 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 2nd: 0,59" / 15 mm 0,28" / 7 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 0,87" / 22 mm Forecastle: 0,63" / 16 mm Quarter deck: 0,71" / 18 mm - Conning towers: Forward 1,57" / 40 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 3 shafts, 28 145 shp / 20 996 Kw = 27,00 kts Range 1 800nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 485 tons (66% coal) Complement: 244 - 318 Cost: £0,377 million / $1,507 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 205 tons, 5,3% - Guns: 201 tons, 5,2% - Weapons: 4 tons, 0,1% Armour: 474 tons, 12,3% - Belts: 148 tons, 3,8% - Armament: 117 tons, 3,0% - Armour Deck: 201 tons, 5,2% - Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0,2% Machinery: 1 361 tons, 35,2% Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 418 tons, 36,7% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 409 tons, 10,6% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 3 220 lbs / 1 460 Kg = 31,3 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,1 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24 Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m Roll period: 12,7 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,03 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,590 / 0,596 Length to Beam Ratio: 8,29 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 20,99 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees Stern overhang: 4,92 ft / 1,50 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Forward deck: 36,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Aft deck: 29,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m - Average freeboard: 17,05 ft / 5,20 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 129,8% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162,2% Waterplane Area: 12 985 Square feet or 1 206 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101% Structure weight / hull surface area: 75 lbs/sq ft or 364 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,90 - Longitudinal: 2,10 - Overall: 0,98 Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Флотский дивизионный торпедный крейсер ФОМ
(можно и 3-4 150-мм / 8-10 105-мм. Германскому флоту и австро-венгерскому на кораблях "нехватало" калибра в 120-мм. Наверное.

laid down 1912, Displacement: 1 566 t light; 1 632 t standard; 1 761 t normal; 1 864 t full load

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Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (343,84 ft / 331,36 ft) x 32,81 ft x (9,84 / 10,29 ft) (104,80 m / 101,00 m) x 10,00 m x (3,00 / 3,14 m) Armament: 10 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,62lbs / 16,16kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 2 raised mounts 4 - 2,01" / 51,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 4,08lbs / 1,85kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft Weight of broadside 373 lbs / 169 kg Main Torpedoes 8 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 0,917 t each, 7,333 t total In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 1,57" / 40 mm 131,23 ft / 40,00 m 7,55 ft / 2,30 m Ends: 0,71" / 18 mm 131,23 ft / 40,00 m 7,55 ft / 2,30 m 68,90 ft / 21,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 61% of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 0,59" / 15 mm - - - Armoured deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 0,71" / 18 mm Forecastle: 0,47" / 12 mm Quarter deck: 0,47" / 12 mm - Conning towers: Forward 1,57" / 40 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 2 shafts, 20 755 shp / 15 483 Kw = 28,00 kts Range 1 600nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 232 tons (66% coal) Complement: 135 - 176 Cost: £0,182 million / $0,726 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 82 tons, 4,6% - Guns: 67 tons, 3,8% - Weapons: 15 tons, 0,8% Armour: 208 tons, 11,8% - Belts: 96 tons, 5,5% - Armament: 8 tons, 0,4% - Armour Deck: 99 tons, 5,6% - Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0,3% Machinery: 776 tons, 44,1% Hull, fittings & equipment: 501 tons, 28,4% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 195 tons, 11,1% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 880 lbs / 399 Kg = 24,9 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,5 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,33 Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m Roll period: 11,0 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,36 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,576 / 0,583 Length to Beam Ratio: 10,10 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 19,43 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21,00 degrees Stern overhang: 4,92 ft / 1,50 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Aft deck: 35,00%, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Average freeboard: 14,33 ft / 4,37 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 152,9% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147,9% Waterplane Area: 7 969 Square feet or 740 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 82% Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 185 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,66 - Longitudinal: 1,84 - Overall: 0,73 Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room

 Отправлено: 03.03.22 19:45. Заголовок: Увы, пока не получае..

Увы, пока не получается без "линейных" крейсеров. Версия "минимизированного" (10000 т, 27 уз, 3х2 280, борт, башни - 120) боевого (?) крейсера:

laid down 1910

Displacement:
8 732 t light; 9 203 t standard; 9 743 t normal; 10 175 t full load

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Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (530,18 ft / 515,09 ft) x 61,35 ft x (18,04 / 18,69 ft) (161,60 m / 157,00 m) x 18,70 m x (5,50 / 5,70 m) Armament: 6 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 675,51lbs / 306,40kg shells, 110 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft 1 raised mount aft - superfiring 12 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1910 Model 12 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread 12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 4 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1910 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft Weight of broadside 4 389 lbs / 1 991 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 4,72" / 120 mm 344,49 ft / 105,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 144,36 ft / 44,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m 26,25 ft / 8,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 103% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 3,54" / 90 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 4,72" / 120 mm 2nd: 0,59" / 15 mm 0,28" / 7 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,10" / 28 mm Forecastle: 0,71" / 18 mm Quarter deck: 0,87" / 22 mm - Conning towers: Forward 4,72" / 120 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 44 082 shp / 32 885 Kw = 27,00 kts Range 2 200nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 972 tons (66% coal) Complement: 489 - 637 Cost: £0,972 million / $3,888 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 969 tons, 9,9% - Guns: 969 tons, 9,9% Armour: 1 762 tons, 18,1% - Belts: 838 tons, 8,6% - Armament: 417 tons, 4,3% - Armour Deck: 461 tons, 4,7% - Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0,5% Machinery: 1 938 tons, 19,9% Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 064 tons, 41,7% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 011 tons, 10,4% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 11 109 lbs / 5 039 Kg = 16,6 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 1,5 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12 Metacentric height 3,0 ft / 0,9 m Roll period: 14,9 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,99 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,02 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,598 / 0,603 Length to Beam Ratio: 8,40 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 24,39 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 44,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 21,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Average freeboard: 17,97 ft / 5,48 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101,5% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161,8% Waterplane Area: 23 654 Square feet or 2 197 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104% Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 649 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,01 - Longitudinal: 1,60 - Overall: 1,06 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room

Но это всё в той или иной степени "повторение". Пока просматривается, по-моему, решение англо-сакской проблемы - выход на СРЗМ и в Индию + ЮВА и арабское побережье. А если растянуть силы англов - то можно и о десанте подумать.

 Отправлено: 03.03.22 20:57. Заголовок: von Echenbach пишет:..

von Echenbach пишет:

цитата:

аи-Тирпиц... рассуждает: - текущая схема развития кораблестроения и развития флота на 1891-1902 и 04 приводит и к стереотипу конструкторского-проектного решения проблем. Отказ от гонки в количестве построенных броненосцев, акцент на техническое превосходство (инновации) и гибкий/сбалансированный тактический состав отрядов и эскадр.

Я почему именно пр о1903 год говорю, потому что именно в это год британцы заложили первый боевой броненосный крейсер - HMS Black Prince (1904) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Black_Prince_(1904)
Немцы в конце 1904 года заложили SMS Gneisenau и через два месяца в январе 1905 - SMS Scharnhorst.
При этом англичанин при нормальном водоизмещении 12800 метрических тонн имел 6 234-мм пушек в шести одноорудийных башнях, и 10 152-мм пушек в очень неудобной батарее.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/HMS_Duke_of_Edinburgh_1909.jpg
Немец: нормальное водоизмещение 11600 тонн, запас угля - 800 тонн, 8 210-мм в башнях и казематах и 6 150-мм в казематах.
Я думаю что если бы в тот же период вместо компактной ШиГи начали бы строить что-то крупное, на 15-16-17 тысяч тонн с 280-мм пушками то спокойно влезло бы три двухорудийных башни линейно
Плюс лучшая защита и адекватный запас топлива. От таких кораблей как от крейсеров толку было бы значительно больше.

 Отправлено: 03.03.22 20:59. Заголовок: von Echenbach пишет:..

von Echenbach пишет:

цитата:

Увы, пока не получается без "линейных" крейсеров.

Попробуйте довести борт хотя бы до 200-мм. Скорость достаточно - 23 узла. Запас угля хотя бы 1100 тонн. Второй калибр из 10 сантиметровых пушек.

 Отправлено: 03.03.22 21:28. Заголовок: Пан директор пишет: ..

Пан директор пишет:

цитата:

довести борт хотя бы до 200-мм. Скорость достаточно - 23 узла. Запас угля хотя бы 1100 тонн. Второй калибр из 10 сантиметровых пушек.

Пока развивается с 1907-08 гг. Планируется (в моём представлении линии аи ;-) ) развитие действий в ограниченных акваториях, и не имеет смысла иметь строить корабли с океанским радиусом/дальностью плавания. Океанские проекты - последуют. Как раз начиная с 04-06 гг.
10-см - утяжеляют проект минимизированный. И в составе эскадры достаточно 88-мм при наличии эскорта. Борт - против 6", в некоторых условиях могут и против 9", когда на отходе, угол пробивания защиты жизненно важных частей неблагоприятен.


Пан директор пишет:

цитата:

о1903 год говорю, потому что именно в это год британцы заложили первый боевой броненосный крейсер - HMS Black Prince (1904)

Не знаю истории тактического обоснования заказа проекта. М.б. дадите ссылку?
Представляется, что пытались совместить эскадренные действия, в т.ч. и в линейном строю с возможностью лидирования крейсерских групп. В том числе и океанских поисковых, с функцией защиты торговых коммуникаций и эскорта конвоев (отдельные конвои англы планировали проводить и в период 1875-80-90-е гг - ссылку найду, что-то из книги по развитию идеи блокады германского побережья)
На 1903 г - возможно в АИ как раз и будет формироваться идея отхода от "теории риска". А большие крейсера, даже с 3х2 11" при действиях в океане становятся объектами охоты. И достаточно дорогими, наверное.

 Отправлено: 03.03.22 22:17. Заголовок: Океанская версия аи ..

Океанская версия аи Блюхера 1903 г. (аи-ранний суперкарманник) 10000 т, 22 уз, 1х2 (2х2) 280, 2х2 150 (6х1 150), 8 88-мм, 2 та.

laid down 1903

Displacement:
8 390 t light; 8 742 t standard; 9 580 t normal; 10 250 t full load

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Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (500,15 ft / 485,56 ft) x 59,06 ft x (19,69 / 20,78 ft) (152,45 m / 148,00 m) x 18,00 m x (6,00 / 6,33 m) Armament: 2 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 675,51lbs / 306,40kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mount, 1903 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck aft 4 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 103,86lbs / 47,11kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre 1 raised mount 8 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1903 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread 8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas Weight of broadside 1 934 lbs / 877 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m torpedoes - 0,647 t each, 1,295 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 6,30" / 160 mm 262,47 ft / 80,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Ends: 1,57" / 40 mm 196,85 ft / 60,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m 26,25 ft / 8,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 83% of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 2nd: 4,72" / 120 mm 1,57" / 40 mm 5,51" / 140 mm 3rd: 0,59" / 15 mm 0,28" / 7 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,26" / 32 mm Forecastle: 0,87" / 22 mm Quarter deck: 1,26" / 32 mm - Conning towers: Forward 5,51" / 140 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 3 shafts, 20 788 ihp / 15 508 Kw = 22,00 kts Range 4 100nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1 507 tons (100% coal) Complement: 483 - 629 Cost: £0,902 million / $3,607 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 454 tons, 4,7% - Guns: 452 tons, 4,7% - Weapons: 3 tons, 0,0% Armour: 1 737 tons, 18,1% - Belts: 864 tons, 9,0% - Armament: 329 tons, 3,4% - Armour Deck: 491 tons, 5,1% - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0,6% Machinery: 3 103 tons, 32,4% Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 096 tons, 32,3% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 190 tons, 12,4% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 7 809 lbs / 3 542 Kg = 11,7 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,29 Metacentric height 3,6 ft / 1,1 m Roll period: 13,1 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,52 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,70 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,594 / 0,602 Length to Beam Ratio: 8,22 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 23,71 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 42,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 25,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Average freeboard: 18,31 ft / 5,58 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 122,0% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148,9% Waterplane Area: 21 382 Square feet or 1 986 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100% Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 504 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,95 - Longitudinal: 1,56 - Overall: 1,00 Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Вероятно, надо 3-4 штуки. И дополнение к ним...

 Отправлено: 04.03.22 10:25. Заголовок: Конкурентный проект ..

Конкурентный проект океанского тяжелого/большого крейсера (150-мм, 4 шт - ромбом, кормовая - возвышенная, над кормовой 280-мм башней).

аи-Санкт Георг - laid down 1904, Displacement: 5 712 t light; 5 982 t standard; 6 560 t normal; 7 022 t full load

Скрытый текст

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (391,68 ft / 380,58 ft) x 52,49 ft x (20,67 / 21,80 ft) (119,39 m / 116,00 m) x 16,00 m x (6,30 / 6,64 m) Armament: 2 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 675,51lbs / 306,40kg shells, 120 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mount, 1904 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck aft 4 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 103,86lbs / 47,11kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model 2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread 1 raised mount 2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 8 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1904 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread 8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas Weight of broadside 1 934 lbs / 877 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 0,796 t each, 1,592 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 2,17" / 55 mm 328,08 ft / 100,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: Unarmoured Main Belt covers 133% of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 3,15" / 80 mm 1,57" / 40 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 2nd: 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 3rd: 0,47" / 12 mm 0,28" / 7 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,10" / 28 mm Forecastle: 0,87" / 22 mm Quarter deck: 0,87" / 22 mm - Conning towers: Forward 3,54" / 90 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 3 shafts, 17 711 ihp / 13 212 Kw = 22,00 kts Range 3 600nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1 040 tons (100% coal) Complement: 363 - 473 Cost: £0,738 million / $2,953 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 455 tons, 6,9% - Guns: 452 tons, 6,9% - Weapons: 3 tons, 0,0% Armour: 691 tons, 10,5% - Belts: 235 tons, 3,6% - Armament: 145 tons, 2,2% - Armour Deck: 284 tons, 4,3% - Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0,4% Machinery: 2 605 tons, 39,7% Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 962 tons, 29,9% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 848 tons, 12,9% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 3 251 lbs / 1 475 Kg = 4,9 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 1,1 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,38 Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m Roll period: 12,1 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,57 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,36 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,556 / 0,564 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,25 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 21,17 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Forward deck: 48,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Aft deck: 17,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Average freeboard: 15,86 ft / 4,84 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 152,6% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114,6% Waterplane Area: 14 368 Square feet or 1 335 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87% Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 474 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,91 - Longitudinal: 2,33 - Overall: 1,00 Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

 Отправлено: 04.03.22 15:32. Заголовок: Все проекты какие-то..

Все проекты какие-то мелкие. И не крейсера в смысле запаса топлива.

 Отправлено: 04.03.22 16:51. Заголовок: Пан директор пишет: ..

Пан директор пишет:

цитата:

Все проекты какие-то мелкие. И не крейсера в смысле запаса топлива.

Ушел думать... аватар - Родена статуй.

 Отправлено: 04.03.22 17:06. Заголовок: ВОТЪ! laid down 1902..

ВОТЪ!
laid down 1902, Displacement: 25 426 t light; 27 556 t standard; 32 607 t normal; 36 649 t full load

Скрытый текст

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (685,70 ft / 652,89 ft) x 85,30 ft x (29,53 / 32,63 ft) (209,00 m / 199,00 m) x 26,00 m x (9,00 / 9,95 m) Armament: 8 - 18,11" / 460 mm 40,0 cal guns - 2 846,39lbs / 1 291,10kg shells, 90 per gun Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1902 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward 4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 4 - 11,02" / 280 mm 45,0 cal guns - 675,51lbs / 306,40kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1902 Model 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward deck forward 12 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 103,86lbs / 47,11kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 6 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward 6 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 20,97lbs / 9,51kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 6 raised mounts Weight of broadside 26 845 lbs / 12 177 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 0,739 t each, 1,477 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 11,0" / 280 mm 436,35 ft / 133,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 183,73 ft / 56,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m 32,81 ft / 10,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 103% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 11,0" / 280 mm 3,94" / 100 mm - 2nd: 8,66" / 220 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 8,66" / 220 mm 3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,26" / 32 mm Forecastle: 0,87" / 22 mm Quarter deck: 1,26" / 32 mm - Conning towers: Forward 8,66" / 220 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 41 979 ihp / 31 316 Kw = 22,00 kts Range 12 000nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 9 093 tons (100% coal) Complement: 1 213 - 1 577 Cost: £3,041 million / $12,163 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 2 978 tons, 9,1% - Guns: 2 976 tons, 9,1% - Weapons: 2 tons, 0,0% Armour: 5 125 tons, 15,7% - Belts: 2 383 tons, 7,3% - Armament: 1 510 tons, 4,6% - Armour Deck: 1 041 tons, 3,2% - Conning Tower: 190 tons, 0,6% Machinery: 6 360 tons, 19,5% Hull, fittings & equipment: 10 962 tons, 33,6% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7 182 tons, 22,0% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 38 536 lbs / 17 480 Kg = 13,0 x 18,1 " / 460 mm shells or 4,5 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,55 Metacentric height 8,3 ft / 2,5 m Roll period: 12,4 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 98 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,88 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,97 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck, an extended bulbous bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,694 / 0,706 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,65 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 27,44 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13,00 degrees Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 36,09 ft / 11,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m - Aft deck: 35,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Average freeboard: 24,26 ft / 7,40 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100,5% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164,2% Waterplane Area: 45 576 Square feet or 4 234 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109% Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 915 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,18 - Longitudinal: 2,00 - Overall: 1,25 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

 Отправлено: 05.03.22 12:04. Заголовок: von Echenbach пишет:..

von Echenbach пишет:

цитата:

laid down 1902, Displacement: 25 426 t light; 27 556 t standard; 32 607 t normal; 36 649 t full load

Вечно вас в крайности бросает.
18 дюймовые пушки в те годы будут стрелять раз в 15-30 минут.
Я бы сказал на большом броненосном крейсере этого периода использование 12 дюймовок вместо 11 дюймовок требует очень сильных аргументов.

 Отправлено: 05.03.22 17:27. Заголовок: Пан директор пишет: ..

Пан директор пишет:

цитата:

18 дюймовые пушки в те годы будут стрелять раз в 15-30 минут.

Всякими ухищрениями можно достичь и выстрела в 3-2 мин. Подходить будут на дистанцию эффективного огня с большим опасением - 18-дм "чемодан" может сразу сделать много нехорошего.
Даже если ставить 12" - с уменьшением размеров, - выглядеть будут аналоги весьма грозно. И отвлекать в океан линейные корабли 1 класса.

Если-же изготовить несколько, 3-7 единиц, огромных кораблей в виде бронированных десантно-штурмовых (с 8-12 дюймовой артиллерией и ПМК в 4-6 -дм, с развитой противоторпедной защитой и грузоподъёмностью в 10000 чел - 1 пех. дивизия) с некоторым количеством высадочных малых средств и возможностью постройки "собственного" причала - возможность высадки на севере Англии (Шотландия будет независимой) или после поражения Франции и Голландии - но это уже безусловно проигрышный вариант, в юго-западной части островов (уэллс кажется).

Проще, представляется, совершить марш на юг - Африка, Индия и т.п. В таком аспекте вполне и небольшие сильные корабли будут эффективными. Балтика-Северное море - береговая оборона и ПЛ, строительство - в Австрии +ПЛ.

 Отправлено: 05.03.22 17:56. Заголовок: Лёгкий рейдер-бронен..

Лёгкий рейдер-броненосец "Зая" (Häschen)
laid down 1902, Displacement: 9 945 t light; 10 630 t standard; 11 375 t normal; 11 972 t full load

Скрытый текст

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (505,25 ft / 485,56 ft) x 65,62 ft x (23,62 / 24,56 ft) (154,00 m / 148,00 m) x 20,00 m x (7,20 / 7,48 m) Armament: 4 - 12,01" / 305 mm 42,0 cal guns - 839,48lbs / 380,78kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1902 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 6 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 284,98lbs / 129,26kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1902 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft 1 raised mount - superfiring 12 - 4,13" / 105 mm 45,0 cal guns - 35,62lbs / 16,16kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread 4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward 4 raised mounts Weight of broadside 5 495 lbs / 2 493 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 0,739 t each, 1,477 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 400,26 ft / 122,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 45,93 ft / 14,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m 39,37 ft / 12,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 127% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 2,36" / 60 mm - 2nd: 5,51" / 140 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 5,51" / 140 mm 3rd: 0,31" / 8 mm 0,16" / 4 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,10" / 28 mm Forecastle: 0,87" / 22 mm Quarter deck: 0,94" / 24 mm - Conning towers: Forward 5,51" / 140 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 22 659 ihp / 16 904 Kw = 22,00 kts Range 3 200nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1 342 tons (100% coal) Complement: 549 - 715 Cost: £1,156 million / $4,624 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 930 tons, 8,2% - Guns: 927 tons, 8,2% - Weapons: 3 tons, 0,0% Armour: 2 155 tons, 18,9% - Belts: 1 178 tons, 10,4% - Armament: 472 tons, 4,1% - Armour Deck: 445 tons, 3,9% - Conning Tower: 60 tons, 0,5% Machinery: 3 433 tons, 30,2% Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 427 tons, 30,1% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 431 tons, 12,6% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 8 190 lbs / 3 715 Kg = 9,5 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,1 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37 Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m Roll period: 12,9 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 86 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,74 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,72 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, an extended bulbous bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,529 / 0,536 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,40 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 23,93 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 19,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 42,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 25,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Average freeboard: 17,85 ft / 5,44 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 126,0% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,7% Waterplane Area: 22 335 Square feet or 2 075 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94% Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 570 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,93 - Longitudinal: 1,90 - Overall: 1,00 Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

+ 3-4 быстроходных всп.кр-угольщика в 6-8 000 т с 2-4 6" и 4 88-мм (3,7").

Почти все пожелания учтены.

 Отправлено: 27.06.22 16:05. Заголовок: аи германские линейн..

аи германские линейные крейсера - просто версии: кормовая группа ГК линейно-возвышенно, ретирадно. Прочие башни - линейно.
лгЛнКр - 12000 т, 6 280 (3х2), 8-10 152, 25-27 уз.

лнКр - 18000 т, 12 280 (4х3), 12 105, 27 уз.

тЛнКр - 22000т, 8-12 12"/15", 29 уз.