Если взрослого мыша взять и, бережно держа, напихать в него иголок Вы получите ежа. Если этого ежа, нос заткнув, чтоб не дышал, Где поглубже, бросить в речку Вы получите ерша. Если этого ерша, головой в тисках зажав, посильней тянуть за хвост Вы получите ужа. Если этого ужа, приготовив два ножа... Впрочем, он наверно сдохнет: Hо идея хороша!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.04.11 21:29. Заголовок: Австрийские проекты ПМВ


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Austro-Hungarian battleship projects during WW I

by Erwin F. Sieche,Vienna, Austria **
When I researched the history of the wartime follow-up capital ship projects of the A-H navy, I was surprised by the amount of manpower involved in such apparently senseless work. A WW II veteran then gave me a cynical explanation when he told me: "In a shooting war, one inch of file paper is far better protection than five inches of steel armor!" The following projects were all designed by the A-H naval technical committee, most probably to avoid any new unwanted designs submitted privately by naval architects or the design departments of the main yards. When we look back to the design history of A-H's only dreadnought type, the Tegetthoff-class, we find that it was done by the then retired supreme naval architect (General Schiffbauingenieur) Siegfried Popper on a consulting basis for the A-H main private yard Stabilimento Tecnico Triestino.
During the design of the follow-up type, the improved Tegetthoffs, which were to replace the obsolete Monarch-class and therefore generally dubbed the Ersatz-Monarch-class, this example motivated all private yards and the prominent naval architects to submit no fewer than 26 competitive designs!

The improved Tegetthoff-class
After a long discussion and half-a-dozen design stages, the four 'Dreadnoughts VIII-IX' were finally approved on 28 May 1914 by the parliamentary delegations with an extraordinary credit of 426,83 million Crowns. The story itself is too complex to be described here in brief and could be subject of a separate article. After the outbreak of WW I, the laying down of these dreadnoughts was postponed although the Skodawerke AG, main gun manufacturer of the Habsburg monarchy, had already started manufacturing the 35 cm cal 45 guns and armor plates for the first batch of triple turrets.
**) >> this is a re-edited and updated version of an article published in the INFOSER section of the US naval quarterly WARSHIP INTERNATIONAL #4/1992, page 411ff (answering to question 52/90 in WI # 4/90).
Battlecruiser design study Ia
During the debates for the 1911 naval budget, the then A-H naval CinC Admiral Montecuccoli had stated: "The great battle-cruiser is not necessary for the A-H navy, it is only of value for the major navies which have to control vast oceans." (Surprisingly an excellent official summary of the whole debate, which also includes A-H design philosophy and financial coverage, was published in the - now defunct - German naval monthly Marine Rundschau, 1911 pages 461 to 475. Naval literature has never referred to this first rate source of information!)
The lessons of war might have changed this opinion. Design study Ia Data Sheet 'Design Study Battlecruiser Ia' is dated September 1915 and is the battlecruiser companion of the improved Tegetthoff type. The main armament consists of the same type of 35-cm-triple-turrets. For the first time in A-H capital ship design, we find one turret situated amidships between the boiler and the turbine rooms. Also for the first time, we find a little auxiliary rudder behind the main one. To save weight, the poop deck is one deck lower, resulting in a remarkable loss of accommodation space. (We find the same solution 35 years later with the German pocket battleships of the Deutschland-class.) Armor protection, torpedo bulkheads and secondary armament mirror A-H design standards and show no sign of evolution. The 9 cm AA guns were of the type developed earlier by Skodawerke AG for the improved Tegetthoffs. The choice of heavy tripod masts is not new for A-H design practice. lt first appeared in the predesigns of the Radetzky-class and can also be found in the predesigns of all subsequent types. But it always had to be omitted for weight reasons to keep within a limited displacement.
Battlecruiser design studies Ib to If
This series is dated December 1916 and shows 35-cm-twin-turrets in different configurations. Apparently the production estimates for 35cm guns were reduced in linkage with the war. So the Skodawerke AG presented solutions for re-using already manufactured and stockpiled armor plates for the triple turrets to construct twin turrets out of this valuable material.
But design studies Ib to lf ( Data Sheet 'Design Study Battlecruiser Ibc', Data Sheet 'Design Study Id', Data Sheet 'Design Study IV', Data Sheet 'Design Study IV' ) apparently became obsolete after the battle of Jutland. The A-H navy had sent a special fact finding mission to its German ally which later produced a voluminous "Jutland report". This caused a break in Austrian design work. In March 1917, a design board which lasted for some days met at Pola to define new gunnery and design briefings.
Design studies II and III
The main result of the board's discussions was the need for a larger caliber, envisaged were 38cm and finally 42cm. This meant that the improved Tegetthoff type became obsolete and the naval technical committee had to design both a new battleship and his battlecruiser companion. Based on the "Jutland report" 25 kts were demanded even for the battleship: a clear result of the tactical advantage of a fast squadron, a lesson learned from the battle of Jutland.
Three months later studies II Data Sheet 'Design Study Battlecruiser II' and III Data Sheet 'Design Study Battlecruiser III' were ready in sketch designs. lt is obvious that the limited period of time only allowed basic studies to demonstrate what kind of capital ship could be 'designed around' a given heavy armament and based on a given limited displacement.
Battlecruiser design study IV
Dated December 1917, this battlecruiser design study breaks the displacement limits and for the first time counteracts the increasing number of air attacks occurring in the the northern Adriatic. Instead of the 9 cm AA in open mounts of the earlier designs we find 4 x 15 cm dual purpose [DP] guns in single deck turrets. Data Sheet 'Design Study IV'
Design studies V and Vl
Also dated December 1917, these designs show the transition to the 42 cm caliber. They also show 15cm DP turrets. But although once more a higher displacement was allowed, the old everpresent weight problems caused the omission of the aft conning tower and a decrease of the battleship's speed to 24 kts. So these two examples should also be recognized as a study without any possibility of realization in the near future, especially regarding the political and economic situation of the time.
Other problems related to this design were deliberately not taken into consideration, e.g. the raiIway transport of 42 cm barrels from Pilsen (Skodawerke AG) to Pola and the lack of docking facilities, not to mention the problem of providing the number of trained crews.
Battleship design study V Data Sheet 'Design Study Battleship V' is far bigger than a good number of the battleships actually later built in the world and battlecruiser study VI Data Sheet 'Design Study Battlecruiser VI' with its few mighty guns fatally recalls Lord Fisher's 'hush hush ships,' like the RN Furious.
Conclusion
The above mentioned design studies were done not only for academic reasons. Indeed they became a part of the 1918-20 naval budget draft. The navy's request for this budget was dated 15 July 1918 and in it's final form asked for: 4 battleships of 32,000 t/28 kts plus 4 battlecruisers of 35,000 t/35 kts armed with the heaviest caliber possible. The supporters of the superdreadnoughts were to get their 'toys' regardless of the usefulness of such a behemoth-division in a narrow sea like the Adriatic and not regardless the catastrophic economic situation of the Habsburg monarchy. In the same time the day-to-day flotilla war in the Adriatic demanded a whole different concept of naval armament. To be fair it must be pointed out that the Austrians were not alone in their overestime of the usefulness of the capital ship as the ultimate war-decisive weapon. We should remember the sour comments of British liaison officers to the Italian admiralty complaining about the Italians asking for more and more capital ships for a future Mahan style naval battle against Austria instead of real action with their submarines, destroyers and torpedoboats.
From the technical point of view, this pedigree of A-H capital ship designs shows a very steady development from dreadnought to super-dreadnought lacking all innovative features. For instance, we see no proposal for a merger between fast battleship and better protected battlecruiser. lf the Imperial German Navy had lasted longer there is no question that the next classes after the Bayern and Mackensen would have been a merged type. When seeing the latest A-H capital ship designs IV and V, it might be interesting to compare them with the German projects of this time: Project L 20e, a 42,000t battleship; and Project GK 4021, a 40,000t battlecruiser. Both also designed with 42cm caliber guns. lt is noteworthy that the German battlecruiser designs also showed AA guns in deck turrets. At the moment we do not have any historical proof as to the extent of which Germans and Austrians exchanged informations about their ship designs.
Literature

* Forstmeyer/Breyer, Deutsche Grosskampfschiffe 1915-1918, Munich 1970
* Sieche, Grosskampfschiffs-Projekte des MTK aus der Zeit des Ersten Weltkriegs, MARINE-Gestern, Heute, #4/1981, Vienna, p. 123ff
* Sieche, Die Schlachtschiffe der k.u.k. Marine, Marine-Arsenal vol. 14, Friedberg 1991

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Ia


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.04.11 21:31. Заголовок: Designed: Displaceme..


Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: December 1916
30,000 / 34,000 ts
220 x 29 x 8.65 m
100,000 shp
30 kts
8,000 nm @ 15 kts / 2,700 nm @ 30 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:
Torpedoes: 8x350 cal 35
18x150 cal 50
20x90 cal 45 (8 as AA)
belt: 100/225/100; deck: 20+20; turrets: 225-350; ct: 270
6x533


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.04.11 21:32. Заголовок: Designed: Displaceme..


Id
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: December 1916
30,000 / 34,000 ts
220 x 29 x 8.65 m
100,000 shp
30 kts
8,000 nm @ 15 kts / 2,700 nm @ 30 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:
Torpedoes: 8x350 cal 35
18x150 cal 50
18x90 cal 45 (6 as AA)
belt: 100/225/100; deck: 20+20; turrets: 225-350; ct: 270
6x533


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.04.11 21:34. Заголовок: Designed: Displaceme..


Ie
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: December 1916
30,000 / 34,000 ts
220 x 29 x 8.65 m
100,000 shp
30 kts
8,000 nm @ 15 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:
Torpedoes: 8x350 cal 45
18x150 cal 50
18x90 cal 45 (6 BAG)
like Ia
6x533


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.04.11 21:36. Заголовок: If Designed: Displac..


If
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: December 1916
30,000 / 34,000 ts
220 x 29 x 8.65 m
100,000 shp
30 kts
8,000 nm @ 15 kts / 2,700 nm @ 30 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:
Torpedoes: 8x350 cal 45
18x150 cal 50
18x90cal 45 ( 4 as AA)
like Ia
6x533


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.04.11 21:39. Заголовок: II Designed: Displac..


II
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: June 1917
30,000 / 34,000 ts
220 x 29 x 8.65 m
100,000 shp
30 kts
8,000 nm @ 15 kts / 2,700 @ 30 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:
Torpedoes: 6x380 cal 45 [3Ч2]
18Ч150 cal 50
18x90 cal 45 ( 6 as AA)
belt: 100/225/100; deck: 20+20; turrets: 225-350; ct: 270
6x533 (submerged tubes)


III
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: June 1917
30,000 / 32,000 ts
200 x 20 x 8.82 m
75,000 shp
25 kts
4,600 nm @ 15 kts / 2,200 nm @ 15 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:
Torpedoes: 8x380 cal 45 [4Ч2]
18Ч150 cal 50 in casemates
14x90 cal 45 dual purpose
See drawing
6x553 (submerged tubes)


VI
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: December 1917
32,000 / 36,000 ts
230 x 20 x 8.82 m
112,000 shp; 27 single-ended boilers (15 oil, 12 coal); 4 turbines
30 kts
3,000 nm @ 30 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:

Torpedoes: 6x380 cal 45 [2Ч2]
18Ч150 cal 50 in casemates
4x150 cal 45 dual purpose in turrets
belt: 100/225/100; deck: 20+20; turrets: 350-225
AA-turrets: 100; torpedo bulkheads: 20+10; conning tower: 270
6x553 (submerged tubes)


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.04.11 21:42. Заголовок: VI (еще один http:/..


VI (еще один )
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: December 1917
32,000 / 36,000 ts
230 x 20 x 8.82 m
112,000 shp
30 kts
3,000 nm @ 30 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:
Torpedoes: 4x420 cal 45 [2Ч2]
18Ч150 cal 50 in casemates
4x150 cal 45 dual purpose
belt: 100/225/100; deck: 20+20; turrets:285-450; ct: 270; DP-turrets: 100
6x553 (submerged tubes)


V
Designed:
Displacement:
Dimensions:
Propulsion:
Max. Speed:
Range:
Crew: Dec 1917
37,200 / 39,600 ts
215 x 32 x 9.5 m
56,000 shp; 15 single-ended boilers; 4 turbines
24 kts
3,000 @ 24 kts
?
Tactical Data
Main:
Secondary:
QF/AA:
Armour:

Torpedoes: 8x420 cal 45 [3Ч2]
20Ч150 cal 50
4x150 cal 50 (AA turrets)
belt: 150/300/150; deck: 20+20; turrets: 450-300
AA-turrets: 100; torpedo bulkheads: 20+10; conning tower: 350
6x533 (submerged tubes)


Эрзац-Монарх ввиду его общеизвестности я не выкладываю.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.04.11 06:50. Заголовок: Хорошо - все в одном..


Хорошо - все в одном месте. Спасибо.
Влияние итальянцев и Севастополей имеется. VI проект как первое приближение "карманного ЛК" интересен.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.04.11 13:27. Заголовок: von Echenbach пишет:..


von Echenbach пишет:

 цитата:
как первое приближение "карманного ЛК" интересен.


Он ИМХО не первое приближение "карманного ЛК", он ИМХО итерация "белого слона"

Откуда "бобик"? И два сержанта? Траву за борт! Фома, куда же делась Тэмза?!
Кругом асфальт - косяк предательски не тонет...
И мы стоим, менты стоят, а он лежит.
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.04.11 18:50. Заголовок: Заинька пишет: итер..


Заинька пишет:

 цитата:
итерация "белого слона"

Смиренно соглашаюся...

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.11 16:15. Заголовок: Трансцендетируясь к ..


Трансцендетируясь к эпохе создания "Тегетгофа" / а м.б. - желательно, - и ранее: насколько и как можно было бы улучшить проект этого самого Тегетгофа?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.11 19:57. Заголовок: Что там поделаеш, н..


Что там поделаеш, нужен наверное какой нибуть магнат или банкир флотофил, который в отсутсвие наследников вместо дальних родствеников и благатворительности завещал денежки флоту. Думаю денежек и имущества равноценых паре милионов фунтов хватит чтоб увеличить размеры дредноутов и доков со старпелями и дать наконец австрийцам прирост в пару кт потраченый на птзи более толстуюпалубу нижнию +адеквтное увеличение мощности кму. Кстати хорошо если денег еще на бркр турбинный хватит, какой там у них проект был с 3 *2 190мм и 27-30 узлами хода, аналог башенного хингинса, для лидирования своих легких сил и набеговых операций.

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